Home > Islam > RE: Allah, and Why I am not a Muslim (Part 1)

RE: Allah, and Why I am not a Muslim (Part 1)

This post is in response to the article: Allah, and Why I am not a Muslim, I completed it in a short time so please forgive me if you find any writing mistakes here. This is just the part 1 of the post, part 2 will be posted soon.


1. “I will have slaves”:

Few things reveal the heart of Allah better than this word, slave, Abd. While Yahweh sought to create beings whom he would welcome to his family (i.e. children), Allah sought more property—more slaves to rule over. To be a slave is to be dehumanized, to be seen only in terms of ones function, to be treated only as an object

2. I will have children.

Yahweh is a lover. He loves more potently and drastically than any other being in the universe. He is pleased when his creatures are enthralled in his love. He only gives the highest form of love and only expects the highest form of love in return, hence why he wishes to approach and be approached in a family relationship because it is only within such a dynamic that there exists the highest form of love, both for the lover and the beloved

No where in the Holy Qura’an Allah calls humans as ‘His Slaves’, He refers to them as Son of Adam or His creation. Muslim traditions have that Humans are the ‘Pride of all creations (superior to every creation)’ for God almighty (Allah). Muslim traditions also hold that Gold almighty (Allah) loves his creations 70 times more than a mother loves her child. Traditions say, if someone walks towards Allah, Allah runs towards Him (in loving and caring metaphorically).

Having said that, Allah is omnipotent and all-powerful, he does not require the ‘earthly’ pleasures of children.

Christian God on the other hand (as you have briefed) wants children and He only gives the highest form of love and only expects the highest form of love in return. He is a God, why is it that He discriminates in the love he gives and receives?

Allah on the other hand, does not discriminate, He is so forgiving and merciful, He says in the Holy Qura’an

Surely, the Believers, and the Jews, and the Christians and the Sabians — whichever party from among these truly believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good deeds — shall have their reward with their Lord, and no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve.
——–Al-Baqarah Chapter 2 : Verse 63

Clearly these verses suggest, regardless of their religion, whoever is a true believer and does good deeds will be rewarded. While Christian God ‘only’ rewards his favourite ones so as to point out the fact that His ‘children’ (who do not give him enough love) are useless.

2. “There shall be two sexes, of these, the female counterpart will I create with an inherent deficiency so as to warrant the majority of my wrath”:

[…]It therefore follows that according to Islam, the woman is a defective product (when compared to the man) and because she was made defective she has a tendency to do things which are displeasing to Allah (and her husband) and so is more likely to merit hell.There is no need to mention how unfair this is given that Allah himself could have removed this deficiency in her character but chose to leave it in but then also punish her for what he gave her in the first place.

[…]
In the Holy Bible however we read:

And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet (‘ezer) for him. — Genesis 2:18 KJV

The word ‘defective’ will be in-appropriate, the correct word would be weaker, in comparison to man. It is part of the nature of a woman, and it’s not like all women are going to hell, there are those women who are pious and control their earthly desires, mainly to gossip. No other religion glorifies women more than Islam I can challenge that. While you quoted traditions about the bad women, you forgot those said about the status of a mother. Islamic traditions hold that “Heaven is to be found under the feet of a mother”. Imagine what will be the status of a woman who has heaven under her feet?

While Allah purposefully created women to be what they are, the Christian God is ‘forced’ to change the attributes of his children, because He was unaware that His ‘children’ could sin. Therefore we read in the bible after Eve committed the sin:

Then the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”
[..]
I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.

Genesis 3:13 and 17

It seems that what should be an ‘all knowing’ God was unaware of what He is creating here. What God is He who ‘regrets’ his creation and is unaware of their deeds. Not to overlook the fact that He chose put to ‘extra’ pain and burden on the shoulders of the woman and made her a ‘slave’ to man. Where was the loving Parent then? And then once he did, not only did he regret His creation

The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.

He also had to make certain ‘alterations’ to His creations so as to make them suffer till eternity.

3. “As my slaves multiply it will follow that some will sin against me, and so I will punish the just with the unjust, the pure with the impure. I will heap trouble upon trouble on them such that in pain will they be conceived and thereafter will pain be their companion”:

[..] this is certainly how Allah operates. Now Islam does not believe in original sin. It does not believe that the order of creation was thrown off because of the sin of Adam & Eve. It does not believe that therefore all men are born in sin and are unrighteous.

The whole concept of Original sin will change the course of history, because according to this concept, Noah, Elijah, Jacob, Abraham, Joseph, Jonah all the way up to Moses and Aron should be born in sin unrighteous. Is this the case? If it is How did Virgin Mary avoid this? Is this fair? every other human being have to carry the weight of the sins of Adam and eve except Mary. Why?

Where then comes deformity of the child (or, since all important questions should be asked in Shakespearean English, “Whence comes deformity”)?

The deformity is not to be confused as a defect, Allah does not need anything from our Physical appearances, He is only content with what is in the soul of a person. The deformity is just but a mere test.

If your logic is true, there shouldn’t be any deformed birth in Christian families, yet we see even some devout Christian families have to live with some deformities within their family. Either Christian God is unjust or something is terribly wrong.

4. “Though my slaves be numerous, the majority of them will I not love”:

The above statement is quite easily shown when one considers that never once in the whole Qur’an does Allah claim to love the unbeliever or the sinner. Furthermore, according to Islam, all those who do not believe in the prophethood of Muhammad nor in his message are unbelievers. This is even more accented by the fact of Allah declaring that all us non-Muslims are quite literally “the worst of creatures” because of our unbelief in Islam (Surah 98:6).

In the light of the verses I have quoted above the title of ‘worst creatures’ are those who do not return to Allah and do not recognize Him as their God (there is no mentioning about believing in Prophet Muhammad in those verses), like I said even non-Muslims are to be rewarded, based on their deeds, Allah is the judge.

According to Islam, Allah only loves those who love him yet in Christianity we find that Yahweh loves us regardless of whether or not we reciprocate that love.

This is not true, like I said in the beginning Islamic traditions say Allah is an endless giver of love, even if He doesn’t receive it (in contradiction to Christian God).

Now Muslims, upon realizing that the Gospel and the Torah completely contradict the Qur’an, have claimed that these texts have been corrupted in order to save face. What is interesting about this reasoning is that it contradicts the claims of the Qur’an itself (Surah 10:64)

Can you prove this argument wrong? Do you know how many times the bible have been ‘edited’? Many verses added, most removed, many changed. Prove me wrong if you can. Claim that in 2000 years no one has removed/added a single word in the Holy bible?

Qura’an is the ONLY Holy scripture which has been the same for 1400 hundred years,

For them are glad tidings in the present life and also in the Hereafter — there is no changing the words of Allah; that indeed is the supreme triumph.
— 10:64 Holy Qura’an

Hence, Allah’s word stands true, Bible have been corrupted and Qura’an has been the same since the beginning. If Bible wasn’t corrupted by humans, there was no reason for Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to come. Therefore, from now on Qura’an is the true word of God.

Islam presents us with a God who utterly failed twice to get his message out and then has the gull to claim to be all-powerful. Through his inability to protect his word, millions upon millions of individuals were raised to believe in a message he had failed to keep pure and yet Allah would still wish to punish Christians and Jews for his own weakness. In the Muslim point of view, Allah’s inability to keep his word from corruption lead to the creation of the greatest false religion of all time which even Islam itself has been unable to supersede in over 1, 400 years. As is evident, Islam presents us with a deity who blames mankind for his own mistakes and impotence yet would still demand worship

God didn’t fail, His creation failed Him, just like when the Israelites made a cow into a deity when Moses left them, same happened again when Jesus left them. Besides, Jesus was just a Prophet of Israel he always claimed he was sent to the ‘lost sheep of Israel’, this view of Jesus (spread in the world) is the work of a certain St. Paul. He never met Jesus in person, just read stories and met his disciples and shaped up the current version of Christianity (since the original version was only limited to Israelites).

Qura’an is a living testimony to a true religion, the book hasn’t been changed for over 1,400 hundred years and the believers kept growing and growing and still are growing. God doesn’t ‘demand’ worship, worship of Allah is a ‘reward’ for those humans who were desperate to make-up deities and worship mere mortals. He doesn’t require any form of worship, it is a blessing he created us humans so we can recognize His nature and glorify Him.

Against this spectacularly deficient understanding of the dispensation of God, the Bible tells us that God’s word is unalterable. It will not be corrupted and it will abide forever

My question once again, please ask the ‘keepers’ of history about changes in the bible and then claim that bible is un-altered for 2000 years If you can.

More on this later
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  1. January 15, 2011 at 8:06 pm

    No where in the Holy Qura’an Allah calls humans as ‘His Slaves’, He refers to them as Son of Adam or His creation.
    That is patently false:

    “They shall have coverings of Fire, above them and covering (of Fire) beneath them; with this Allah does frighten His slaves: “O My slaves, therefore fear Me!” Those who avoid At-Taghut (false deities) by not worshipping them and turn to Allah in repentance, for them are glad tidings; so announce the good news to My slaves…” S. 39:16-17 Hilali-Khan

    In the above, Allah is the speaker and he quite clearly calls the people who believe in him his slaves. Now, it is either that you were lying when you said that Allah does not call humans his slaves or you did not know about this. If you were lying then it is to your shame that you must deceive in order to defend your religion yet if you were simply unaware then I must take all your subsequent points with a grain of salt. I mean, if I know more than you on the matters I feel confident on, how can I trust your knowledge on things I’m not confident on? That said, clearly your above point has been refuted and you would do well to understand your own scriptures before pontificating on them.

    Christian God on the other hand (as you have briefed) wants children and He only gives the highest form of love and only expects the highest form of love in return. He is a God, why is it that He discriminates in the love he gives and receives?

    Allah on the other hand, does not discriminate, He is so forgiving and merciful, He says in the Holy Qura’an

    You ask God why he would discriminate among the love that he receives as if the Islamic deity did no such thing. You are aware that Islam believes that one is rewarded by how well they follow the teachings of the Qur’an and the Sunnah right? And to the greater degree that one follows those precepts, to the greater degree that one loves Allah and the prophet and so even in Islam Allah discriminates concerning the love he receives. Therefore your point is once more refuted and once more it would seem that you have not understood the teachings of Islam. Furthermore, my refutation of this teaching of Islam still stands because the only way you saw to escape its implications was by denying that your deity discriminated but seeing as it has been shown that he does, you can’t therefore escape the implications of my argument. Once more, you have yet to refute my points.

    Clearly these verses suggest, regardless of their religion, whoever is a true believer and does good deeds will be rewarded. While Christian God ‘only’ rewards his favourite ones so as to point out the fact that His ‘children’ (who do not give him enough love) are useless.

    Once more you must deceive your audience of what Christianity and Islam teach in order to make your point and that is rather sad. Islam does not teach that anyone from any religion will be saved but rather those who believe in particular teachings (mainly in one God, the last day etc.). Christianity also teaches the same thing in relation to believing its own teachings. In the same way that Allah will only reward those who submit to him, God will also only reward those who wish to submit to his commandments and become his children. Once more, I have shown that in order to make your point you have to deceive your audience about what Islam teaches and when we have put things in perspective, your argument in fact fails. You have yet to refute what I said.

    Not to overlook the fact that He chose put to ‘extra’ pain and burden on the shoulders of the woman and made her a ‘slave’ to man. Where was the loving Parent then? And then once he did, not only did he regret His creation

    It’s clear that you have to misrepresent my argument in order to have any hope of refuting it. I would ask that anyone reading this response to compare it with what I had actually written and my explanation on the matter. The fact of the matter is that only happened after they had sinned and you would agree with me that if God chooses to punish the individual after he has sinned then that has no bearing on whether or not they are a loving parent. In fact, parents punish their children after they have done something wrong and that is completely normal. Are you seriously telling me that it’s not a loving action to punish your children when they have done something wrong? Are you serious? From simply thinking about the matter, we understand that to punish one’s children is a loving thing to do. If childbirth is that which constitutes as extra pain and therefore it is wrong, then by your own argument the Muslim God is even more cruel because while in Christianity, punishment (of pain in childbirth) follows the breaking of God’s commandment, in Islam the punishment (of pain in childbirth) comes after God has forgiven them and/or not in relation to their sin at all. That would mean that he punished the woman for no reason. This is what your argument amounts to because you call the pain of childbirth a punishment but in Islam it has always been like that and so according to your beliefs, people are being punished for no reason. Once more I have shown how your argument fails and in fact makes the Muslim God seem cruel and unjust. Thank you for defending my position.

    And then once he did, not only did he regret His creation:

    “The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.”

    In the above you would use the word regret in order to make a case that God didn’t know that Adam and Eve would break his commandments and that subsequently humans would cause all manner of evil. It seems that you do not understand the use of anthropomorphic language within the bible to make a point about God using human language in order so that we might understand? In fact, the Qur’an has it too:

    Then Adam received commandments from his Lord, and his Lord repented (fataba) towards him; for He is Oft-Repenting (huwa al-tawwabu), Most Merciful. S. 2:37

    Our Lord! And make us submissive unto you and of our seed a nation submissive unto you, and show us our ways of worship, and repent (watub) toward us. Lo! You are the Repenting (anta al-tawwabu), the merciful. S. 2:128

    Except those who repent (taboo) and make amends and openly declare: To them I repent (atoobu); for I am Oft-Repenting (wa ana al-tawwabu), Most Merciful. S. 2:160

    look up the definition of repent and then ask yourself if Allah truly did repent in the manner that repentance is understood or whether the language is simply used to make a point in terms that humans can more appropriately understand? If in the Qur’an this can be true, why then not for the Bible? Clearly once more you have to be deceiving in order to make your point.

    In the light of the verses I have quoted above the title of ‘worst creatures’ are those who do not return to Allah and do not recognize Him as their God (there is no mentioning about believing in Prophet Muhammad in those verses), like I said even non-Muslims are to be rewarded, based on their deeds, Allah is the judge.

    In the above you just said that non-Muslims will be rewarded. If Muslim means a submitter to Allah, then are you really saying that people who have not submitted to Allah will be rewarded in heaven? If people will be rewarded either way then what about the polytheists? According to Islam, we all originally believed in Allah and hence every single person who remains a non-Muslim upon their death will not be rewarded. So my point still stands. Are you telling me that you don’t need to believe in the prophethood of Muhammad in order to be a Muslim (and hence a submitter and hence to be saved)? Then why does Allah claim to have perfected the religion of Islam and why then is the fundamental of Muslims (submitters): “there is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his Messenger”. Clearly one needs to believe in the prophethood of Muhammad in order to be a true submitter. Please, I try not to misrepresent Islam and I would expect that you do the same. If non-Muslims are rewarded then why bother with da’wah. Just tell them to be good and then they’ll be rewarded in heaven. Clearly that’s not how things work so why would you lie like this.

    This is not true, like I said in the beginning Islamic traditions say Allah is an endless giver of love, even if He doesn’t receive it (in contradiction to Christian God).

    What you say is untrue. Find me one instance in the Qur’an where Allah says, “I love the Unbeliever”. If Allah has never said this then you should have more respect for your deity then to put things in his mouth which he has not said. I have claimed that Allah only loves those who love him and this is evidenced in the Qur’an where Allah consistently makes statement to the effect that he loves those who love him and act in a manner that shows their love for Allah. You lie by making the claim that Allah even loves those who hate him when he clearly has said that he doesn’t. Please stop misrepresenting Islam in this fashion. You should have more respect for your religion.

    The whole concept of Original sin will change the course of history, because according to this concept, Noah, Elijah, Jacob, Abraham, Joseph, Jonah all the way up to Moses and Aron should be born in sin unrighteous. Is this the case? If it is How did Virgin Mary avoid this? Is this fair? every other human being have to carry the weight of the sins of Adam and eve except Mary. Why?

    Mary was born in sin and needed to be saved by Christ just like everyone else. The sin nature is passed on by the Father.

    The deformity is not to be confused as a defect, Allah does not need anything from our Physical appearances, He is only content with what is in the soul of a person. The deformity is just but a mere test.

    If your logic is true, there shouldn’t be any deformed birth in Christian families, yet we see even some devout Christian families have to live with some deformities within their family. Either Christian God is unjust or something is terribly wrong.

    It’s just a test, riiight. Pardon my sarcasm but I don’t think that even you truly believe this. So you’re saying that if the child who is supposed to be born pure is punished on birth they still should love the God who punished them for no reason? Isn’t punishing someone for no reason unfair? What about natural disasters which kill young children, sure you might say that they’ll go to heaven etc. but it is fundamentally wrong to kill a righteous person. According to Islam children are righteous and pure hence why then kill them for no reason? As much as you’d like it to be otherwise, you have yet to prove your point.

    Can you prove this argument wrong? Do you know how many times the bible have been ‘edited’? Many verses added, most removed, many changed. Prove me wrong if you can. Claim that in 2000 years no one has removed/added a single word in the Holy bible?

    Qura’an is the ONLY Holy scripture which has been the same for 1400 hundred years,
    The Christian claim is that no doctrine has been changed and the message of the bible has always been the same. Now you say that the Qur’an has always been the same? Let’s see about that:

    Yusuf Ali in his book, Translation and Commentary of the Holy Qur’an refers to a variant reading in Ubai ibn Ka`b’s codex of the Qur’an which reads: “… and he is a father to them”? With this addition, Qur’an 33:6 would read:

    The Prophet is closer
    To the believers than
    Their own selves,
    And he is a father to them
    And his wives are
    Their mothers…
    Why does Yusuf Ali cite this variant? Is it possible that he sees this variant as an improvement? Moreover, why does he refer to different Qur’an readings, however small, in Notes 2666 and 2948?4

    Notice that even Yusuf ali admits that the Qur’an has been subject to edits and if you would cite me liberal scholars on the matter of the edits in the bible then I can cite you scholars on the matter of edits within the Qur’an and even your own Islamic traditions say that the Qur’an was edited and that some verses were missing etc (such as Aisha admitting that the verse on stoning isn’t found in the Qur’an because a goat ate the material it was written on). The difference is the fact that you cannot prove at all that any doctrine was changed with regards to Christianity.

    For them are glad tidings in the present life and also in the Hereafter — there is no changing the words of Allah; that indeed is the supreme triumph.
    — 10:64 Holy Qura’an

    You use the above to prove that the Qur’an couldn’t be changed yet it says that there is no change in the words of Allah. Allah himself said that the Gospel and the Torah are his words so they couldn’t be corrupted either so if anything, that Surah just proves that the bible was not corrupted. Once again you by claiming that these were actually corrupted go against the Qur’an.

    You make certain comments about Paul and Jesus which are plainly false and easy to be proven false but I’ve written enough for today. It’s plain to see from the above that you have done nothing to refute my points.

    • January 17, 2011 at 1:45 am

      methodus :

      No where in the Holy Qura’an Allah calls humans as ‘His Slaves’, He refers to them as Son of Adam or His creation.
      That is patently false:

      “They shall have coverings of Fire, above them and covering (of Fire) beneath them; with this Allah does frighten His slaves: “O My slaves, therefore fear Me!” Those who avoid At-Taghut (false deities) by not worshipping them and turn to Allah in repentance, for them are glad tidings; so announce the good news to My slaves…” S. 39:16-17 Hilali-Khan

      In the above, Allah is the speaker and he quite clearly calls the people who believe in him his slaves. Now, it is either that you were lying when you said that Allah does not call humans his slaves or you did not know about this. If you were lying then it is to your shame that you must deceive in order to defend your religion yet if you were simply unaware then I must take all your subsequent points with a grain of salt. I mean, if I know more than you on the matters I feel confident on, how can I trust your knowledge on things I’m not confident on? That said, clearly your above point has been refuted and you would do well to understand your own scriptures before pontificating on them.

      You are quoting one of the ‘many’ translations found… Here is from the one I follow, plus you have left out the most important part

      They will have over them coverings of fire, and beneath them similar coverings. It is this against which Allah warns His servants. ‘O My servants, take Me, then, for your Protector.’ And those who shun false gods lest they worship them and turn to Allah — for them is glad tidings. So give glad tidings to My servants

      Allah is asking His ‘servants’ to take Him only as their protector, I don’t have to tell you the difference between a servant and a slave.

      methodus :

      You ask God why he would discriminate among the love that he receives as if the Islamic deity did no such thing. You are aware that Islam believes that one is rewarded by how well they follow the teachings of the Qur’an and the Sunnah right? And to the greater degree that one follows those precepts, to the greater degree that one loves Allah and the prophet and so even in Islam Allah discriminates concerning the love he receives. Therefore your point is once more refuted and once more it would seem that you have not understood the teachings of Islam. Furthermore, my refutation of this teaching of Islam still stands because the only way you saw to escape its implications was by denying that your deity discriminated but seeing as it has been shown that he does, you can’t therefore escape the implications of my argument. Once more, you have yet to refute my points.

      It seems your study of Islam is premitive. Praying (i.e. showing love towards Allah) is only a small part of attributing towards Goodness. The greater good is helping humanity, doing charity, caring for others selflessly. Islamic traditions have it that a prostitute was blessed with heaven only because once she helped a limping dog who was thirsty and hungry for two days. If you read Qura’an you will see Allah commands us to do most of the service towards humanity. It is Islam which exalted the status of women, pre-Islam, Arab Jews and Christians burried their new born daughters alive. The reward depends more on what’s in your heart, less on what are your actions. It was a Muslim Caliph who was quoted saying:

      If a dog dies of hunger and/or thirst on the borders of my kingdom, I will be answerable for it in the court of Allah almighty.

      methodus :

      Clearly these verses suggest, regardless of their religion, whoever is a true believer and does good deeds will be rewarded. While Christian God ‘only’ rewards his favourite ones so as to point out the fact that His ‘children’ (who do not give him enough love) are useless.

      Once more you must deceive your audience of what Christianity and Islam teach in order to make your point and that is rather sad. Islam does not teach that anyone from any religion will be saved but rather those who believe in particular teachings (mainly in one God, the last day etc.). Christianity also teaches the same thing in relation to believing its own teachings. In the same way that Allah will only reward those who submit to him, God will also only reward those who wish to submit to his commandments and become his children. Once more, I have shown that in order to make your point you have to deceive your audience about what Islam teaches and when we have put things in perspective, your argument in fact fails. You have yet to refute what I said.

      I have quoted a Qura’anic verse and the tradition about that prostitute confirms it, correct me if I am wrong but don’t Christians say it is only ‘through Jesus’ we are going to be blessed with heaven?

      methodus :

      Not to overlook the fact that He chose put to ‘extra’ pain and burden on the shoulders of the woman and made her a ‘slave’ to man. Where was the loving Parent then? And then once he did, not only did he regret His creation

      It’s clear that you have to misrepresent my argument in order to have any hope of refuting it. I would ask that anyone reading this response to compare it with what I had actually written and my explanation on the matter. The fact of the matter is that only happened after they had sinned and you would agree with me that if God chooses to punish the individual after he has sinned then that has no bearing on whether or not they are a loving parent. In fact, parents punish their children after they have done something wrong and that is completely normal. Are you seriously telling me that it’s not a loving action to punish your children when they have done something wrong? Are you serious? From simply thinking about the matter, we understand that to punish one’s children is a loving thing to do. If childbirth is that which constitutes as extra pain and therefore it is wrong, then by your own argument the Muslim God is even more cruel because while in Christianity, punishment (of pain in childbirth) follows the breaking of God’s commandment, in Islam the punishment (of pain in childbirth) comes after God has forgiven them and/or not in relation to their sin at all. That would mean that he punished the woman for no reason. This is what your argument amounts to because you call the pain of childbirth a punishment but in Islam it has always been like that and so according to your beliefs, people are being punished for no reason. Once more I have shown how your argument fails and in fact makes the Muslim God seem cruel and unjust. Thank you for defending my position.

      And then once he did, not only did he regret His creation:

      You missed my point entirely, if the Christian God was all knowing and a ‘supreme planner’, why is he acting like a clumsy parent, not to mention a clumsy planner too. When it comes to the character of God, I for once believe He is the all knowing and supreme in his planning, He does not ‘change’ / ‘regret’ what He has created, everything that He has created has a purpose.

      methodus :

      “The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.”

      In the above you would use the word regret in order to make a case that God didn’t know that Adam and Eve would break his commandments and that subsequently humans would cause all manner of evil. It seems that you do not understand the use of anthropomorphic language within the bible to make a point about God using human language in order so that we might understand? In fact, the Qur’an has it too:

      Then Adam received commandments from his Lord, and his Lord repented (fataba) towards him; for He is Oft-Repenting (huwa al-tawwabu), Most Merciful. S. 2:37

      Our Lord! And make us submissive unto you and of our seed a nation submissive unto you, and show us our ways of worship, and repent (watub) toward us. Lo! You are the Repenting (anta al-tawwabu), the merciful. S. 2:128

      Except those who repent (taboo) and make amends and openly declare: To them I repent (atoobu); for I am Oft-Repenting (wa ana al-tawwabu), Most Merciful. S. 2:160

      look up the definition of repent and then ask yourself if Allah truly did repent in the manner that repentance is understood or whether the language is simply used to make a point in terms that humans can more appropriately understand? If in the Qur’an this can be true, why then not for the Bible? Clearly once more you have to be deceiving in order to make your point.

      In the light of the verses I have quoted above the title of ‘worst creatures’ are those who do not return to Allah and do not recognize Him as their God (there is no mentioning about believing in Prophet Muhammad in those verses), like I said even non-Muslims are to be rewarded, based on their deeds, Allah is the judge.

      Taaboo and Tauboo / Tooboo are totally different in meaning, You are misquoting Qura’an, where are you getting your translation from?

      Then Adam learnt from his Lord certain words of prayer. So He turned towards him with mercy. Surely, He is Oft-Returning with compassion, and is Merciful. S. 2:37

      ‘Our Lord, make us submissive to Thee and make of our offspring a people submissive to Thee. And show us our ways of worship, and turn to us with mercy; for Thou art Oft-Returning with compassion and Merciful. S. 2:128

      But they who repent and amend and openly declare the truth, it is these to whom I turn with forgiveness, and I am Oft-Returning with compassion and Merciful. S. 2:160

      This is the glory of Allah, He doesn’t forsake His creation, rather He guided them and forgave them for what they did, and told them How to live there lives, in contrast to the Christian God who held grudge upon Human Kind till Jesus was crucified!

      methodus :

      In the above you just said that non-Muslims will be rewarded. If Muslim means a submitter to Allah, then are you really saying that people who have not submitted to Allah will be rewarded in heaven? If people will be rewarded either way then what about the polytheists? According to Islam, we all originally believed in Allah and hence every single person who remains a non-Muslim upon their death will not be rewarded. So my point still stands. Are you telling me that you don’t need to believe in the prophethood of Muhammad in order to be a Muslim (and hence a submitter and hence to be saved)? Then why does Allah claim to have perfected the religion of Islam and why then is the fundamental of Muslims (submitters): “there is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his Messenger”. Clearly one needs to believe in the prophethood of Muhammad in order to be a true submitter. Please, I try not to misrepresent Islam and I would expect that you do the same. If non-Muslims are rewarded then why bother with da’wah. Just tell them to be good and then they’ll be rewarded in heaven. Clearly that’s not how things work so why would you lie like this.

      If you recognize God, then you will have to recognize His word too. God is not what you or the polytheist depict Him to be, He is omnipotent, almighty, supreme ruler and ‘free of all earthly desires’, He has no son nore He has a father, He doesn’t sleep and have no regrets, He will bring the day of judgement upon us, on that day, nothing but Justice will be done.
      If you believe in this, congratulations you are a Muslim, this was the only mission of the Prophet Muhamamd (peace be upon him), if you believe all that about God, then you are endorsing the fact that Prophet Muhamamd (peace be upon him) was infact true. How can you then not say that He was a true messenger?

      methodus :

      This is not true, like I said in the beginning Islamic traditions say Allah is an endless giver of love, even if He doesn’t receive it (in contradiction to Christian God).

      What you say is untrue. Find me one instance in the Qur’an where Allah says, “I love the Unbeliever”. If Allah has never said this then you should have more respect for your deity then to put things in his mouth which he has not said. I have claimed that Allah only loves those who love him and this is evidenced in the Qur’an where Allah consistently makes statement to the effect that he loves those who love him and act in a manner that shows their love for Allah. You lie by making the claim that Allah even loves those who hate him when he clearly has said that he doesn’t. Please stop misrepresenting Islam in this fashion. You should have more respect for your religion.

      It is simple logic, do you need Allah to ‘dictate’ how much He loves his creation? Allah has no ‘regrets’ whatsoever, if He wanted, all the non-believers will perish in a moment. But that is not happening, what does that tell you? If a child hates his mother and goes far away from her, the mother still loves her child and hopes he will someday come back to her, while a human mother might at a certain point regret giving birth to such a child, God does not, God has let man free to decide his own fate.

      methodus :

      The whole concept of Original sin will change the course of history, because according to this concept, Noah, Elijah, Jacob, Abraham, Joseph, Jonah all the way up to Moses and Aron should be born in sin unrighteous. Is this the case? If it is How did Virgin Mary avoid this? Is this fair? every other human being have to carry the weight of the sins of Adam and eve except Mary. Why?

      Mary was born in sin and needed to be saved by Christ just like everyone else. The sin nature is passed on by the Father.

      Then how did Jesus ‘avoid’ the Original sin coming out of Mary’s body? The other Holy men I mentioned above were all sinners? How can a ‘sinner’ be Holy? Even Abraham the founder of the roots of divine religion was a sinner? If they were all sinners, why didn’t God sent Jesus ‘before’ He sent all these Holy men? It seems totally unfair to them, all their lives they tried ‘avoiding’ sins yet they couldn’t do so.

      methodus :

      The deformity is not to be confused as a defect, Allah does not need anything from our Physical appearances, He is only content with what is in the soul of a person. The deformity is just but a mere test.

      If your logic is true, there shouldn’t be any deformed birth in Christian families, yet we see even some devout Christian families have to live with some deformities within their family. Either Christian God is unjust or something is terribly wrong.

      It’s just a test, riiight. Pardon my sarcasm but I don’t think that even you truly believe this. So you’re saying that if the child who is supposed to be born pure is punished on birth they still should love the God who punished them for no reason? Isn’t punishing someone for no reason unfair? What about natural disasters which kill young children, sure you might say that they’ll go to heaven etc. but it is fundamentally wrong to kill a righteous person. According to Islam children are righteous and pure hence why then kill them for no reason? As much as you’d like it to be otherwise, you have yet to prove your point.

      What you are forgetting is the same will apply to Christian God too, natural disasters kill thousands of ‘Christians’, is that fair? Natural disasters are brought upon nations who go too far in their rebellion. If you can justify the ‘murder’ of the Christians by their own Lord I am sure I can too. Besides, you didn’t answer my questions about deformities in Chiristian families.

      methodus :

      Can you prove this argument wrong? Do you know how many times the bible have been ‘edited’? Many verses added, most removed, many changed. Prove me wrong if you can. Claim that in 2000 years no one has removed/added a single word in the Holy bible?

      Qura’an is the ONLY Holy scripture which has been the same for 1400 hundred years,
      The Christian claim is that no doctrine has been changed and the message of the bible has always been the same. Now you say that the Qur’an has always been the same? Let’s see about that:

      Yusuf Ali in his book, Translation and Commentary of the Holy Qur’an refers to a variant reading in Ubai ibn Ka`b’s codex of the Qur’an which reads: “… and he is a father to them”? With this addition, Qur’an 33:6 would read:

      The Prophet is closer
      To the believers than
      Their own selves,
      And he is a father to them
      And his wives are
      Their mothers…
      Why does Yusuf Ali cite this variant? Is it possible that he sees this variant as an improvement? Moreover, why does he refer to different Qur’an readings, however small, in Notes 2666 and 2948?4

      Notice that even Yusuf ali admits that the Qur’an has been subject to edits and if you would cite me liberal scholars on the matter of the edits in the bible then I can cite you scholars on the matter of edits within the Qur’an and even your own Islamic traditions say that the Qur’an was edited and that some verses were missing etc (such as Aisha admitting that the verse on stoning isn’t found in the Qur’an because a goat ate the material it was written on). The difference is the fact that you cannot prove at all that any doctrine was changed with regards to Christianity.

      For them are glad tidings in the present life and also in the Hereafter — there is no changing the words of Allah; that indeed is the supreme triumph.
      — 10:64 Holy Qura’an

      You use the above to prove that the Qur’an couldn’t be changed yet it says that there is no change in the words of Allah. Allah himself said that the Gospel and the Torah are his words so they couldn’t be corrupted either so if anything, that Surah just proves that the bible was not corrupted. Once again you by claiming that these were actually corrupted go against the Qur’an.

      You make certain comments about Paul and Jesus which are plainly false and easy to be proven false but I’ve written enough for today. It’s plain to see from the above that you have done nothing to refute my points.

      What you are quoting above about the ‘editing’ and ‘goat eating’ are man made legends which to this day are being made by Muslims (sadly) to gain power over the masses. You should know that I however belong to what others know as Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, hence you have to understand that in our interpretation / understanding, no such legend has any place. All that I say, is what every Ahmadi Muslim believe, perhaps the next time you will do research on that and reply me back with the questions I have put towards you.

  2. January 18, 2011 at 10:05 pm

    I’ll reply to this argument soon in the form of a post.

  1. March 12, 2011 at 11:37 am

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